tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post2361977777287435188..comments2023-12-25T11:13:04.495+00:00Comments on Seraphic Singles: Scandal and PerseveranceSeraphichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06251504033428511090noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-1433861772402932942014-06-14T18:47:25.804+01:002014-06-14T18:47:25.804+01:00Wow. Powerful post. I am myself, by the way, one o...Wow. Powerful post. I am myself, by the way, one of those <b>socially</b> weak virgin Catholic women. Although in my case the social weakness is due to Aspergers/Autism Spectrum Disorder.Rivkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15411813031385028803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-6843421847943604562014-02-21T17:17:29.500+00:002014-02-21T17:17:29.500+00:00Dear Brigid,
The mathematician in me can't he...Dear Brigid,<br /><br />The mathematician in me can't help but highlight how different ways of saying something can boil down to the same <i>underlying thing</i> (which is nifty, in that having different ways to name something means (as you say) having different ways to think about <i>one thing</i>): starting from the premise that the Moral Law is part of our <i>nature</i>, one cannot <i>miss the mark</i> or <i>wound our heart or relationship with God</i> <b>except</b> by doing wrong, nor can we choose to do wrong <b>except</b> by wounding our heart or relationship with God.<br /><br />---<br /><br />The mathematical professional in me (with an interest in understanding how people go about understanding, eachother or in general) can't help but wonder if Seraphic and Antigone actually understand the same thing by the phrase "making out"; to be sure you are refering to the same external appearances, but Seraphic is clearly considering the inward repercussions of choosing such actions, and Antigone seems to be considering more the <i>longer-term externals</i>... is a snog a pinch of incense?Belfry Bathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00514867101036143597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-9971226713834148832014-02-20T23:59:29.159+00:002014-02-20T23:59:29.159+00:00What disturbed me were the posts that said if you&...What disturbed me were the posts that said if you're boyfriend doesn't want to make out with you, then he has an unhealthy view of physical affection and that some men will dump a woman who won't make out with them.<br /><br />What if making out is too sensuous for one or both of you to handle? It doesn't necessarily mean that you're being scrupulous. Some people just can't handle it and remain chaste even if they're engaged.<br /><br />Tiny Theresenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-76407902941117281812014-02-20T23:07:36.755+00:002014-02-20T23:07:36.755+00:00Sheila, well, you know, I have never read any cler...Sheila, well, you know, I have never read any cleric making an actual pronouncement on it, so Pope Alexander's tough talk was a bit of a relief. WHOO-HOO! Someone willing to take a stand! Now we can go home! Yee-haw! Seraphichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06251504033428511090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-65148051150530174952014-02-20T23:04:46.783+00:002014-02-20T23:04:46.783+00:00Tammy, it's important that you don't worry...Tammy, it's important that you don't worry about these things so much. How nice it would be if we could go back to the days when we could just play with boys or girls in the sandbox without worrying much about each other! Somehow, you have got to get some of that tranquility back in socializing with the opposite sex. <br /><br />The most important word I have for you is "relationship." We're all in relationship with each other, and all our relationships are different. When it comes to physical expressions of affection, what still really matters are the interior dispositions of both people in the relationship. Sexual attraction can be a really strong, really blinding force, but...BUT.. . you can still make good and prudent and loving choices despite it. You can say "No." You can smile and leave the room.<br /><br />For example, when I had a terrible crush on Max (see "Seraphic Singles" the Book), I was tempted to (as a friend advised) "Just make out with him and come home!") But I didn't. I didn't because I was darned sure we would not have any kind of post-Germany relationship (and we haven't) and because it would be beneath my dignity as a PhD student (which it would have been) and because he would probably have told other people (and I have since heard all about the poor girl he played shortly after I left). So even though just seeing dear Max made me feel slightly drunk, prudence and charity (especially charity for myself) prevailed! Seraphichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06251504033428511090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-43125976503508413362014-02-20T18:10:30.389+00:002014-02-20T18:10:30.389+00:00Still, "a Pope said so once" is not doct...Still, "a Pope said so once" is not doctrine. Popes have said all kinds of things.<br /><br />I agree with you about making out, but because what you say makes sense, and because making out (being a sexually arousing activity) carries with it many of the emotional issues of having sex .... not because a Pope said so once.<br /><br />I get picky about this sort of thing because there are lots of websites full of Church-hating people whose argument consists of "A Pope said this! And then another Pope said something different! See, the Church is false!" Infallibility is rather more complicated than that, as I'm sure you know.Sheilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10853868724554947854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-75703593211801631342014-02-20T01:28:40.452+00:002014-02-20T01:28:40.452+00:00This conversation is so frustrating. :( I probably...This conversation is so frustrating. :( I probably shouldn't have even read it, being one of those very single Singles who has never even held a boy's hand, let alone kissed one! I find myself constantly looking for rules when trying to envision myself in a potential-for-kissing scenario (I don't mean fantasize; I just mean plan out how I might potentially actually go about dating and even becoming engaged to and maybe even marrying someone -- which is, naturally, a big concern to a slightly lonely Single!), because rules are constants in an unknown, right? Helpful constraints for when you don't know what you're doing or whether you can do it? And for a long time I was content with Good Old Pope Alexander VII's decree. (Also with what I learned from that really weird 80s video we watched in Catholic junior high health class, in which we were told by a woman with a giant blonde perm that 'French Kissing is a Sin!')<br /><br />But then I start thinking about all of the different women and girls I know, and yes, the men and boys, too, and I wonder, how can we generalize to all of their very different situations and personalities and circumstances and loves? Is the experience of loving someone so much the same that rules such as 'no french kissing' or 'men who don't kiss have something wrong with them and you shouldn't marry them' apply to everyone, everywhere? Hence -- frustration. And I end up feeling really lost, because this kind of relativism (a.k.a., the modern world today!) scares me.<br /><br />I mean, I would say that my instincts on this matter -- having no experience, admittedly -- are the same as yours, Auntie Seraphic -- which is to say that I think there's a difference between a physical expression of love for another person and a physical expression intended to create or obtain physical (sexual) pleasure; and that the only place where the two can meet, quite safely, is within the sacrament of marriage. And certain types of physical actions are, without a doubt, designed to arouse; loving though they can be, they should exist within that committed relationship. <br /><br />Anyway, just my confused thoughts. Not sure if they make sense!Tannynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-91870519991518611602014-02-19T23:34:33.563+00:002014-02-19T23:34:33.563+00:00I think perhaps a more Eastern view of sin might m...I think perhaps a more Eastern view of sin might make the idea of "making out to a non-spouse/fiancé is a sin" more palatable. From that angle, it's more of a pragmatic recognition that making out isn't super useful to one's spiritual health, and that it might be worth re-thinking rather than forging lustily ahead.<br /><br />I'm Orthodox, so in my worldview sin is not <i>That Thing You Did That Was Wrong</i> but <i>That Way You Missed the Mark</i> or <i>That Thing You Did That Wounded Your Heart and Your Relationship with God.</i><br /><br />In that light, I can see how making out could be damaging to one's equilibrium, not to mention distracting one from the things one should be aiming for. Lust is a passion, and when the passions rule us instead of the other way around, that's a problem.Brigidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-48043181941676577382014-02-19T04:47:11.248+00:002014-02-19T04:47:11.248+00:00Truth does not change, though. Either it has alway...Truth does not change, though. Either it has always been wrong for single, non-affianced, non-married people to kiss until they are well & truly sexually aroused, or it has never been so. And the answer to that question rests not with you or me or contemporary mores but the authentic teaching of the Christian Church. <br /><br />If we cannot live up to a standard-and perhaps few of us can-the solution is not to do away with the standard but to admit our limitations.<br /><br />Seraphichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06251504033428511090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-48221352606484163272014-02-19T04:05:38.797+00:002014-02-19T04:05:38.797+00:00Ah, I am a hopeless advocatus diaboli... (But, hey...Ah, I am a hopeless advocatus diaboli... (But, hey, Church employs 'em, right?). Sorry, I really will end here (unless you want me to go on!). I realize that, though public, this is your blog but I do feel strongly about this issue. <br /><br />Pope Alexander VII lived in 1599 - 1667. We do not. In Pope Alexander VII's century, 12-year-old girls were often married (in the Church) to 20 and 30-something year old men. Some of these unions probably ended up more or less well. But such a union today would appall most contemporary Westerners. Social mores change; writings and teachings must be considered within their historical and cultural contexts. Truth continues to reveal itself. <br /><br />Pope Alexander VII was also a crusader against heliocentrism. Heretics could be burnt at the stake. We've rather papered and moved on from those.Antigone in NYCnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-11622218380218579072014-02-19T01:48:41.402+00:002014-02-19T01:48:41.402+00:00I don't know. He was only 20-something at the ...I don't know. He was only 20-something at the time, and we were sitting around the table talking about dating.<br /><br />At any rate, you are quite right that we should examine physical expressions of affection and sexual desire within the context of virtue and charity overall. <br /><br />The "how far can we go?" question shouldn't be answered within a vacuum. However, a pope has given his opinion that making out is a serious sin, and that shouldn't be papered over, either. When in doubt, mention it to a priest in the confessional, that's what I would advise. And it's not just about chastity. For the reasons I mention above, it is also about justice. Seraphichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06251504033428511090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-4369449933785503262014-02-19T01:06:20.407+00:002014-02-19T01:06:20.407+00:00Physical affection shouldn't be about proving....Physical affection shouldn't be about proving. It's (ideally and morally, I think) the external expression of an internal reality (I care about you, I am attracted to you, I am expressing these feelings in an unique and embodied way). <br /><br /><i>His big fear was that he might go too far and the girl would never stop him. This scared the heck out of him.</i><br /><br />That is a certainly a lot of fear.<br /><br />Was he as afraid in all other aspects of his moral life outside of the possible sins of concupiscence? Was he as terrified of pride, anger, and selfishness in his relationships? Of cowardice? These sins can be just as (eternal) life draining and dangerous (if you believe the good Catholic medievals---or even C.S. Lewis, for that matter---FAR more dangerous).<br /><br />Antigone in NYCnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-5858219422352712252014-02-19T00:24:33.786+00:002014-02-19T00:24:33.786+00:00So what we are saying here is that guys have to ma...So what we are saying here is that guys have to make out, whether it is a sin or not, to prove that they are not homosexuals?<br /><br />Nah. Believe me, I know that some girls think this way when their sweetie doesn't grab them after three weeks (or two weeks, or the first date), and I also know there are still Catholic gay guys out there lying their socks off to their convenient girlfriends so that they can "pass." This is why I advocate something called TALKING and SHARING OPINIONS and BELIEFS. <br /><br />We would all go insane if guys advocated guys not marry girls who won't have sex with them before marriage, lest they never get any sex after marriage. And yet here we are seriously discussing whether or not we should bother with guys who won't have foreplay with us before marriage, lest they be gay or secretly emotionally twisted or whatever. <br /><br />My friend McKelvie, who is now a priest so this is no longer something he has to worry about ,said he would love it if he was a bit too forward and a girl slapped him. His big fear was that he might go too far and the girl would never stop him. This scared the heck out of him. So I would advocate to any girl who is dating a guy who seems attracted to her but does not launch couch snogging sessions is to ask why not. Then he can explain. IN WORDS. Sometimes it's just that he is a conscientious guy who doesn't want to fall into sin. Seraphichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06251504033428511090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-90141820723308093812014-02-18T20:22:09.385+00:002014-02-18T20:22:09.385+00:00I do certainly agree that making out is a form of ...I do certainly agree that making out is a form of foreplay, and can be very murky territory for a dating couple. But I do sort of side with Antigone (etc) for this one, in that physical affection can, in certain settings, mirror emotion affection, and I would be worried about being in a headed-toward marriage type relationship with a man who never even tried to do more than a simple kiss. <br /><br />Perhaps I'm biased; I have a close family friend who, having been seduced by a college boyfriend into giving away her virginity and sorely regretting it, was ever so grateful that her next boyfriend never pressured her to do anything beyond chaste, quick kissing on the lips. Soon after they married it turned out that he was a closeted gay man who, because he worked in politics (it was the Nineties), needed to be married to a pretty, educated woman like my friend. They divorced within two years, and it took her a very long time to get over it. <br /><br />Obviously that's a terrible, probably unusual case, but just fyi.Anon for nownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-69163969846369048312014-02-18T17:31:07.590+00:002014-02-18T17:31:07.590+00:00I leave fiancés who have wedding dates out of the ...I leave fiancés who have wedding dates out of the whole discussion of making out. I don't want to say this five more times in the same year, or get graphic about it, but making out is a form of foreplay and therefore a help to happy marital sexuality. <br /><br />If you are making out, but you are getting married to this man in x months, chances are most likely you are not using this person for thrills or lustfully, but are preparing (whether consciously or not) for sex with him. You have staked your whole life on this person, and he on you, and you are going to be consummating the relationship in a comfortable period of time. <br /><br />Therefore, I believe fiancés are a different kettle of fish entirely. I am thinking about the SINGLE Singles, which is to say, girls who have NEITHER fiancés or husbands. <br /><br />The caveat is that a fiancé has to be a REAL fiancé (with a wedding date attached), not a guy you think you will marry one day or a live-in lover you call your fiancé to keep your Catholic grandma quiet.Seraphichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06251504033428511090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-68182610671458983312014-02-18T17:14:45.564+00:002014-02-18T17:14:45.564+00:00I think the potential sinfulness of making out dep...I think the potential sinfulness of making out depends very much on the circumstances (ie. the nature of the relationship and commitment, what is being expressed, how long you indulge). A brief, chaste kiss could be sinful and unkind under certain circumstances (ie. you have no real interest in the man or are kissing him out of a sense of obligation or for a little thrill for yourself). In that case, sin would be less about misplaced physical arousal, and more about the deceit behind the kiss.<br /><br />No woman should ever be making out with a man if she doesn’t want to—just as no woman should be chastely pecking a man if she doesn’t want to. No good man (Catholic or otherwise) should pressure a woman to do ANYTHING she doesn’t want to. But a lot of good men (good, upright, marriageable men) might walk away. It cuts both ways: I wouldn’t absolutely rule it out (esp. if affection had been clearly and comfortably demonstrated as described above), but as a 30-something contemporary Western woman I think I would be extremely nervous about marrying an older (30 plus) contemporary Western man who had only expressed his physical affection by holding hands and a few brief, closed mouth kisses. <br /><br />I guess it really does come down to a question of whether making out is always sinful (I don’t). I think we can both agree that we are never given license to sin; ends do not justify means. But I stand by my argument that Catholics who intend to reserve sex for marriage have a difficult enough road ahead of us: placing even greater restrictions on physical affection in contemporary Western society restricts your potential matches to a very, very small pool, which is unfortunately wriggling with many (not all, but many) emotionally stunted personalities. <br />Antigone in NYCnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-40815155246662457142014-02-18T16:45:03.214+00:002014-02-18T16:45:03.214+00:00I am currently engaged, and I agree with Antigone....I am currently engaged, and I agree with Antigone. I would have found it strange if we had made a much more serious commitment to each other (public engagement) without any increase in our physical affection for each other. I mean, thanks to NFP classes he already knows my daily temperature readings and other more intimate data. <br />Our physical relationship does have an impact on our overall relationship -- for example, if I haven't initiated kissing in awhile, he'll notice and say something -- not because he just really needs to "get some" but because there's usually some underlying reason that we need to discuss before things get back to normal. We are learning those dynamics at a reduced level in the same way that we're learning NFP, discussing finances and children in pre-marital counseling, and setting new boundaries with our families of origin in preparation for a healthy marriage. It's not a "trial run" in the same way that living together would be (and no, we haven't had sex), but it is recognizing that it doesn't have to be 0 to 60 either. <br />For me to not kiss him until our wedding day would be the equivalent of him not saying "I love you" until our wedding day. Maybe if you both agree well in advance that those will be the parameters of your relationship, it can work, but it seems more like a calling of heroic virtue rather than a general expectation. Anonymous for this timenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-43748822078126535562014-02-18T16:34:48.625+00:002014-02-18T16:34:48.625+00:00I am all for the "no making out" rule. H...I am all for the "no making out" rule. Have I always observed this? Noooo, but the guys I have made out with in the past still hold some bizarre fuzzy happy spot in my brain. Even though I knew that the making out wasn't going to lead to anything else, the guys always held out hope and I certainly had some trouble remembering why it had to stop at times. The way I see it is that as single women, we should plan on avoiding it. At all costs? Meh.Catherinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06445940812881681649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-75164612296746456782014-02-18T15:08:46.956+00:002014-02-18T15:08:46.956+00:00Well said, Sheila. I am an affectionate woman myse...Well said, Sheila. I am an affectionate woman myself. I hug men and women I am fond of, and I kiss them soundly on the cheeks, and I would certainly walk arm in arm with them if they did not find it weird. Hand-holding is a couple thing, or a grown-up and child thing, so for myself I would draw the line at holding hands with male friends, although I do not mind shaking hands and having my hand kissed by such polite men still sufficiently old-fashioned (or Polish) to do so. <br /><br />I was annoyed when an older married man once planted a kiss on my lips, and I would certainly avoid doing that to anyone other than my husband. <br /><br />Naturally you Singles think that my behaviour with men-I-am-not-married-to should be more circumspect than yours, but ask yourselves why this should be? Naturally I do not make out with any male friend whom I find attractive, although I hug any male friend I very much like. I would even waltz with them, a dance which necessitates very little "room left for the Holy Spirit." So what's the difference?<br /><br />I suggest the difference is that making out is foreplay, and hugging and waltzing are not. Seraphichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06251504033428511090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-46179092897194837212014-02-18T14:14:53.548+00:002014-02-18T14:14:53.548+00:00Of course chaste kissing shouldn't be *all* yo...Of course chaste kissing shouldn't be *all* you do. There should be holding hands, affectionate hugs, arm around the shoulder while watching a movie .... all these emotional, affectionate things that are not sexual. (Too much focus on kissing was problematic for me -- I had resolved to "save my first kiss" and suddenly realized that if I kept up the way I was going, I was going to save nothing BUT the first kiss .... oh dear!) The point should be to do things that are emotional, romantic, affectionate, but not things that are passionate, arousing, or sexual. We all have some basic sense of what these things are .... we detect a difference between a couple sweetly snuggling at a party and the one that makes you want to yell "Get a room!"<br /><br />If someone tells you "get a room!" you're going too far. Depending on your personal selves, it might be wise to keep much of your dating in public spaces like family living rooms, homes shared with roommates, etc. ... but I suspect more mature people may not need this rule. It was a good rule for us.<br /><br />And I think if you stick to this -- doing lots of things that allow you to feel emotionally close, and no things that are of their nature arousing, you aren't going to have men declining to propose because you haven't gone further. After all, you've been plenty affectionate and it should be clear by that point whether or not there's any chemistry.<br /><br />Of course, any physical display of affection should be in line with the affection you actually feel, and the level of commitment and intimacy the relationship actually has. Anything else is kind of like a lie, don't you think?Sheilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10853868724554947854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-67089665675462856262014-02-18T13:07:31.838+00:002014-02-18T13:07:31.838+00:00For me the question is whether making out is a sin...For me the question is whether making out is a sin or not. If it's a sin, you don't do it. If you do it, you go yo confession. There are conscientious Catholic men who do indeed feel making out is at very least a near occasion for sin. If there are Catholic men yelling, "You won't do even that?", then they need to do some reading. And thinking. Girls get endless enjoyment from couch snogging sessions whereas all that foreplay and no resolution is eventually frustrating for men. Too bad for them, of course, but it would be kinder, chaster & safer if they were not brought to that level in the first place.<br /><br />Yep. We here on Seraphic Singles say it like it is.Seraphichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06251504033428511090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-6780252089845545022014-02-18T08:17:45.765+00:002014-02-18T08:17:45.765+00:00From what I've seen, our Eavesdroppers seem pr...From what I've seen, our Eavesdroppers seem pretty benign, so I would have no problem with their returning.Julianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-18683787825279628902014-02-18T05:35:48.856+00:002014-02-18T05:35:48.856+00:00Antigone in NY, why do you say that? I mean, are y...<i>Antigone in NY, why do you say that? I mean, are you saying that men will not fall in love with women who do not make out with them? </i><br /><br />I am saying that very few contemporary, healthy, Western men will propose to a woman with whom they have shared only the brief, chaste kiss. And I'm guessing many (though not all) of us reading are Western women.<br /><br />I've seen men fall in love with crushes whom they have never kissed, yes, but a proposal is a different thing.<br /><br />Are there some men who would? I'm sure there are a few wonderful guys who would, esp. in more conservative subcultures. But in my experience in Catholic circles, a lot of the guys that might had emotional issues and were generally uncomfortable with their sexuality. <br /><br />As faithful Catholics we women have a tough enough time finding a spouse (at least on my side of the pond, the ratio of men to women at Catholic events skews around 30/70), we shouldn't take on unrealistic and unrequired standards. (I can't help but think of the Parisees heaping unnecessary burdens on on others' heads.)<br /><br />By all means, if a woman feels called by God to make such a resolution, she should do so. But she should understand the potential consequences of her actions, ie. significantly reducing her chances of marriage. Just like the 17th Century Jesuit missionary needed to understand the possibility of a brutal martyrdom (sorry for the dramatic comparison!).<br /><br />By all means, bring back the boys!<br /><br />~ AntigoneAntigone in NYCnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-60002589550296107722014-02-18T01:51:34.871+00:002014-02-18T01:51:34.871+00:00Incidentally, I am thinking of getting rid of the ...Incidentally, I am thinking of getting rid of the boy ban starting this St. Joseph's Day. What do we think of that? Should we accept the Eavesdroppers as Readers again?Seraphichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06251504033428511090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-91583653117524836142014-02-18T01:28:27.474+00:002014-02-18T01:28:27.474+00:00Another occasional Eavesdropper, I would like to r...Another occasional Eavesdropper, I would like to report that it's more than possible to fall madly head-over-heels and plan dates and proposals without any tangency occuring at all, never mind <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osculating_circle" rel="nofollow">osculation</a>; and to be sorely crushed when she cannot requite his protestations of et.c.<br /><br />I don't know if that helps you at all, or how <i>commonplace</i> it is. But do all you can to be more what God intended you to be, and virtuous in particular, because that does attract the virtuous man.Belfry Bathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00514867101036143597noreply@blogger.com