tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post4508631330064608575..comments2023-12-25T11:13:04.495+00:00Comments on Seraphic Singles: Do Mothers Have It All?Seraphichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06251504033428511090noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-55626079224425950652013-09-29T02:49:36.360+01:002013-09-29T02:49:36.360+01:00I read your post, Seraphic, in the morning and by ...I read your post, Seraphic, in the morning and by the time I got home in the evening, the combox had exploded and everybody had expressed so eloquently what I was thinking as I read Emily's article.<br /><br />I guess the biggest problem I have is adopting the 'having it all' terminology. What does that even mean? Does mean 'having a perfect life' or even just 'having a life with the potential for perfect happiness and meaningfulness'? But as Catholics on this earth, and as rational beings looking around seeing obviously nobody who has that kind of life, shouldn't we dismiss the notion that 'having it all' is something to strive for anyway? <br /><br />"Having it all" just seems extremely vaguely defined for me, which is probably why it's easy enough for a single woman to use it to define discontent or unhappiness with her current state as compared with the vocation she thinks she is missing out on. And that bitterness or sadness is completely understandable - nobody is denying her the right to express it. But the game of who has it all (or more of all) just doesn't seem very productive or helpful to anyone. <br />Urszulahttp://whereismysuitcase.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-77586062557037687742013-09-28T22:37:59.858+01:002013-09-28T22:37:59.858+01:00I think what we have here is the grass is always g...I think what we have here is the grass is always greener syndrome, when it's not. <br />Lenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09173616693453942166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-11543602158518716112013-09-28T14:53:32.624+01:002013-09-28T14:53:32.624+01:00@ Sheila
> I thought it was a beautiful idea.....@ Sheila<br /><br />> I thought it was a beautiful idea...<br /><br />There are lots of different models in history for expanding a family by adult adoption, by self-elected servitude and so on. Granted, in the secular context a lot of that was related to inheritance laws, but the point stands: there are different ways to graft people onto a clan or family. <br /><br />Thing is, I think those kinds of ideas won't fly today in the West (and I include Poland here, provisionally). If:<br />(a) The concept of a family gradually gets restricted to your direct biological family and direct family by marriage, while friendship as a lasting non-familial bond is less and less common<br /><br />AND (b) you make marriage more and about just bonding with people you are currently sexually attracted to (divorce and remarriage, same sex partnerships),<br /> <br />The notion of "adopting" somebody into your family if there are no sexual motives and they are not a little kid, starts to make precious little sense.<br /><br />The fact that emotional needs are being simplified to just sexual needs means the NEED to “adopt” people is less obvious too – a person can be fed, clothed and given shelter without having a family, and – to the extent a romantic/sexual partner is increasingly viewed as the single solution to most of your emotional needs >18 and <65, “adoption” cannot fulfil that need, as it is being perceived.<br /><br />Catholics, who do recognise there are other reasons to be bonded with people, would still probably not all be very happy with returning to some sort of public adult adoption ritual, because people would still be primed to see it as a back-door for same sex partnerships. <br /><br />Then again, maybe I’m wrong. :-)<br /><br />> But it seemed to me it was trying to make a Point <br /><br />I think there is always a temptation to make General Thoughts about Life (and writing is a subspecies) directly from lived experience only. After all, my insistence on people being unique is partly the result of my lived experience.<br /><br />If Ms Stimpson took advice from Random Internet People, I’d probably tell her that saying “I see clearly” is a very, very dangerous and overused statement. It gets even worse when the thing we profess to see clearly is the experience of a vast group of people (here all mothers) and bonus danger points if you are an outsider. Only God sees everything clearly. We, if we are lucky and have enough wisdom, see some *aspects* clearly, but very rarely the whole thing. Which is why attentively listening to people unlike ourselves is important – because it lets us see some other aspects of the same thing. Provided we don’t start out by discrediting what they are trying to tell us.<br /><br />I’m assuming this is partly why people have such mixed reactions. What Ms Stimpson claims to see clearly resonates with some. And then it completely doesn’t resonate with others. Which should be perfectly fine and dandy, because that’s how life works (I think), except the article seems to leave too little room for legitimate disagreement.<br /><br />Stay awesome, Sheila. :-)Iotanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-32304502331611696052013-09-28T09:15:02.616+01:002013-09-28T09:15:02.616+01:00I realize that most of you have moved on from this...I realize that most of you have moved on from this conversation, however here I am sleepless, and I find all of these comments interesting to read and consider. My previous comment (that Emily is a lovely kind person, ect.) was written in haste as I was heading out the door, but I was compelled to write at that moment as I have had some small personal interactions with Emily, and I have become quite fond of her from afar. The mother in me just wanted to say something, anything, in Emily's defense. But this is a thoughtful discussion, and I should have offered something with a little more meat to it. So here is what I think. Because Emily's essay is so personal and she has made herself vulnerable, I think we need to take her at face value. Sinead has beautifully articulated this way of considering Emily's essay in comment after comment. Accept Emily's pain for what it is; she is being honest. Just because Emily has written a well-known singles book, does not mean that everything she writes has to be directed at singles. This essay was clearly written for mothers, and I suspect for any mother that is struggling in a bad marriage, with difficult children, or in dire circumstances of any kind, Emily's essay is a salve. ..LisaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-36094026297287046652013-09-28T01:14:59.529+01:002013-09-28T01:14:59.529+01:00@Iota --
>"Everyone has a potential to b...@Iota -- <br /><br />>"Everyone has a potential to be a different flavour of awesome."<br /><br />This is something that dawned on me about ten years ago and changed my life. If I want to be a saint, I won't be like any other saint in the world. Just me. So when I try to become a better person, I shouldn't imitate some other person, but become the best ME I can. I love the way you put that.<br /><br />Eve Tushnet had an article some time ago, which I can't find, about an idea of having some kind of Catholic ritual for the bonding of friends on the level of family. In other words, that you could take your dearest friend before the altar and promise to be family to them, to take care of them when they're sick or old, and so forth. I thought it was a beautiful idea, especially for perpetual Singles (as she is).<br /><br />I don't object to Emily's article as such, if it's really a cry of the heart, her own regrets and all. But it seemed to me it was trying to make a Point about motherhood being objectively better than everything else, and the fact is there are upsides and downsides to everything. And I guess as a mother myself, it felt a little bit like the old "stop whining, at least you're married" thing I occasionally hear. My favorite thing any blog can say is, "It's okay if you're not loving every minute." No matter what your vocation is, it's nice to hear that.<br /><br />@Seraphic, this is from non-Catholics, thank goodness. And no one's said that stuff to my face, just on the internet where no one seems to care how rude they are. But still. Motherhood isn't really respected, and even people who respect motherhood in the abstract always take issue with the way YOU'RE doing it, because no matter how you do it, you're always Doing It Wrong.<br /><br />But in the main you get no feedback at all. Make breakfast. Do laundry. Make lunch. Do dishes. Make dinner. Do more dishes. And the only thing you hear all day is "where are my socks?" and "I hate yoooooooou!" and "what have you been doing all day, it's such a mess!" My own family is pretty sweet but the woes of other married women make me want to sob. Like this, for instance: http://motherhoodmatters.blogs.deseretnews.com/2012/06/22/the-invisible-woman/<br /><br />I say all this not to say "motherhood sucks" but more, Mothers who choose to work don't do it because they think the work outside the home is more *important* than caring for their kids. It just can be more satisfying and has more room for a personal sense of achievement. And I don't think there's anything selfish about that. It isn't fair to say "Because you have a child, you are never allowed to do any job that is finished, that is evaluated, that you can say you succeeded at in your lifetime." My own mom stayed home with me most of my childhood, but when she got a part-time job when I was at school, I think it added a lot to her sense of self-worth.<br /><br />This isn't to start some kind of "who has it harder" vocation war. I just meant to point out that every vocation has suffering AND importance. No one "has it all," no matter how perfect their life looks if you peek in their windows. Sheilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10853868724554947854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-20670257936918883612013-09-27T20:47:53.769+01:002013-09-27T20:47:53.769+01:00Just to clarify: I'm not actually looking for ...Just to clarify: I'm not actually looking for advice (although I will consider any given) so you don't need to go into "Auntie Seraphic mode", unless you really want to. :-) <br /><br />For me it makes no sense to "hope to marry". I can hope to finish a Ph.D. thesis (although it might require the intercession of St. Jude...). Or to travel internationally. Or to do anything else that depends on *me* with only some third party assistance. Marriage fundamentally depends on two people. I can't really "hope to marry" in the abstract. Somewhere out there there either are or aren't people for whom I could be a good spouse. If there are, I'll think about it when I notice them (and I hope the Good Lord is generous enough to place them right in front of my nose). If there aren't, I can’t hope them into existence.<br /><br />So far as it can be discussed abstractly, the statistical chances aren’t promising. And my first response to any interest in those quarters would be to try and be (let's hope gently) discouraging, since the last think I'd want is a bad marriage.<br /><br />That said, I firmly believe God has an interesting sense of humour. If there's an option of a good marriage somewhere down the road, I'll probably be a little terrified ("What if it DOESN'T work?!") but I think I'd take it. <br /><br />But I'm certainly not going to look specifically for prospects of marriage just to change people's ideas (since, to be honest, I don't think all of those ideas are fundamentally bad ones - after all, there are even people whom the Church deems intrinsically unable to marry, so the idea that some people shouldn't try to marry, regardless of their own wishes, due to their condition, isn't entirely wrong).<br /><br />Currently I'm mostly enjoying the vantage point that sitting sideways atop a bunch of different boxes offers. The view from up here is certainly VERY interesting. And yes, I do have a lot of satisfaction from (unintentionally) disrupting norms, preconceptions, standards etc. simply by existing.Iotanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-4764325268589885842013-09-27T19:41:35.419+01:002013-09-27T19:41:35.419+01:00@Iota. Aha! Your point of view is from, well, seve...@Iota. Aha! Your point of view is from, well, several points! Catholic, Polish, well-educated, Single AND with CP. It all adds up to an almost unique circumstance, doesn't it? I think under such circumstances, focusing on making friends and on sharing interests is so much more likely to create emotionally satisfying relationships (one or two of which might lead to marriage*) than the whole dating-for-the-sake-of-dating routine, e.g. through dating websites, where people's choices can't help but be based on people-as-merchandise. But meanwhile, if you don't mind doing it, I imagine there must be some satisfaction in challenging people's ideas about what it means to be a person with CP, e.g. that you hope to marry just as other people hope to marry.<br /> <br />*This is to point out that widows, particularly young widows, sometimes remarry. Seraphichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06251504033428511090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-56928520046368601532013-09-27T14:04:40.944+01:002013-09-27T14:04:40.944+01:00I think you have it all when you are fruitful and ...I think you have it all when you are fruitful and when you are filled with joy and gratitude. By fruitful I mean bearing spiritual fruit in the kingdom of God, which can be done many ways, but usually involves some sort of dying to self (a la "unless a seed...."). And joy and gratitude is really what we all are deeply seeking and feel absolutely wonderful. <br /><br />I also read Emily's article and was just horrified.Katynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-2523372218807462342013-09-27T14:03:58.507+01:002013-09-27T14:03:58.507+01:00Seraphic, thank you for your wonderful, incisive c...Seraphic, thank you for your wonderful, incisive clarity and perspective, as always! Your comments earlier about the best and the good made me think of that beautiful quote from St Augustine, "the Virgin Mary first conceived in her heart." I love that we are all called to be mothers in the spiritual sense primarily, and then some, or perhaps most, of us also physically, if God wills. <br /><br />Sinead, I think it is healthy to mourn, and I agree with you there is no point women being dishonest about the enormity of the loss of not having our own babies and the pain of being unable to fulfil our vocations. If Emily wanted to have a good cry about that, I would be crying right along with her! But Emily's article still troubled me. While it is completely normal and natural to feel the depth of loss and longing for husband and babies, writing that her professional success is meaningless without them does not seem very humble or gracious to God, who is the author of her success and desires to form and bring souls to Himself through her gifts and talents. Of course, it is not the same as being a wife and mother, but in His eyes her faithfulness to this task is just as precious and meaningful. <br /><br />A Catholic blogger who is childless wrote a beautiful post recently on "Things a(n) (Infertile) Woman Should Never Say" and I found her advice equally applicable and challenging to me as a single woman. As Seraphic rightly points out, no life "has it all". Every woman has her cross and her crown. Every woman has dreams that have died and been resurrected and transformed into something greater. This is the beauty and paradox of the Christian story - "The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone". I have always thought Brideshead Revisited illustrates this truth so beautifully, especially through its heroines Julia, Cordelia and Lady Marchmain. Each woman is "thwarted" in her vocation, and yet by the novel's end we see that God has worked profoundly through each of them to love and bring souls to Him.Maryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10107493541860967018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-1483847979476341302013-09-27T13:45:18.760+01:002013-09-27T13:45:18.760+01:00> If you can't express your experiences and...> If you can't express your experiences and fears about being Single on a Singles blog, then WHERE can you express them!? :-D<br /><br />I actually prefer real people for that (my poor, poor friends! :D). Here I'm mostly doing on my "theoretician's hat" and trying to explain myself from a third person POV.<br /><br />> I agree totally that Poland has a whole different culture where Singleness is concerned. <br /><br />Bonus points in my case for having a visible, significant, physical disability (a form of cerebral palsy). And extra bonus points for being in a situation where I can, currently, lead a mostly independent life (live on my own) which is much more than most people with my condition can, but visibly less than healthy people can.<br /><br />It's like not fitting into ANY box. If I were just very disabled, I'd mostly fit the "The Dignity of Suffering with Christ" box. But I don't suffer THAT much and actually have an (I'd argue healthy) ambition to live as close to the physical "norm" as possible. When the Church preaches about the dignity of suffering, I'm grateful, but when people preach it to me in the simplistic form of "just suffer with Christ" I have a sneaking suspicion they might be using theology to comfort themselves rather than me or, at the very least, don't really understand my situation.<br /><br />On the other hand, I clearly don't fit the standard way of thinking about Single people, even to the extent there is one (either in the West or in Poland). Not least because many people would be anything from puzzled, through embarrassed to (maybe) horrified if I ever did suggest I might marry. <br /><br />(and even the secular Sexual Revolution milieu would have issues with me - while my condition is not hereditary and people with CP do have healthy children and - at least now - can be competent parents, you can't allow abortion for any and all disabled, suggest euthanasia is a mercy and then jump from joy when THOSE kinds of people are "sexually liberating" themselves. It does not compute.)<br /><br />So I dare suggest you don't take my comments as representative of Poland. My situations a little "sideways from normal" pretty much in every context. :-D<br /><br />But if I am "making you think" productive thoughts, I'm very happy.Iotanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-48473725315866037232013-09-27T13:07:53.928+01:002013-09-27T13:07:53.928+01:00@Iota. If you can't express your experiences a...@Iota. If you can't express your experiences and fears about being Single on a Singles blog, then WHERE can you express them!? :-D<br /><br />I agree totally that Poland has a whole different culture where Singleness is concerned. And this is a total learning moment for Poland and the Polish Church: what does it mean to be an unmarried Catholic Pole? How can she be served by the Church? How can she serve the Church? How is her inherent dignity recognized--is it? How is she protected in her vulnerability? What is she offered so that she doesn't--and Poland doesn't--fall into the traps in which Singles in the West struggle?<br /><br />Both you and Sinead are making me think a lot about the experiences of women in countries where the Church is losing influence and the Sexual Revolution is managing, for the first time, to do widespread damage, managing to make the Irish and the Poles self-harm the way the British and North Americans have since the 1960s.<br />Seraphichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06251504033428511090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-33317494268823180642013-09-27T12:56:28.768+01:002013-09-27T12:56:28.768+01:00I say not a word against Emily Stimpson, whom I ha...I say not a word against Emily Stimpson, whom I have never met in my life. I merely take an issue with one part of one article that she has written, which is an entirely different thing. Obviously, Emily is not her article, or even her opinions about marriage and the single state. <br /><br />Men sometimes tell me that men are much clearer on the distinction between self and work than women are. One Eavesdropper mourns that he can tell a man friend that his ideas are stupid and still be pals with that friend, but he cannot tell a woman friend that her ideas are stupid without arousing her unending fury. Keeping this in mind, I forgive him for all the times he tells me my ideas are stupid, but only because he is good-looking. Seraphichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06251504033428511090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-23107802404290801692013-09-27T12:50:12.833+01:002013-09-27T12:50:12.833+01:00> I always correct people when they say "m...> I always correct people when they say "maybe I'll never have a family"<br /><br />I kind of both agree and disagree (I remember your post about that). <br /><br />My family is huge and sprawling. I have an astonishing number of uncles, aunts, cousins. And in Poland, those family connections do count somewhat. So I obviously have (a large) family, and there is no danger of me literally "never having had one".<br /><br />BUT, if I hypothesize about myself 25 years form now, it's almost certain that my renaming parent will have died, a high risk that so will have my only direct sibling, and that most indirect relations (aunts/cousins) will not play a large role in my life and I in theirs (for predictable, legit reasons).<br /><br />In a shorter timespan, my closest family will probably be alive, but (again, for legit reasons) it looks like they will be taking care of me more than I will be taking care of them.<br /><br />And this, even more than not having children and a husband specifically, is what does send chills down my spine. Not having people who consider themselves your blood or (in any sense) adopted relations, in whose life you can play a long-term role and be offered human comfort and protection in return, and not being able to contribute "enough" (as much as I'd want to) in the shorter run. <br /><br />Of course theologically I will always belong to the spiritual family of the Church (unless I go crazy and apostatize or something). <br /><br />But I do think there's a real risk that needs to be acknowledged. Personally, I seem to benefit form periodically staring at what I'm afraid of and saying "Yes, this is a possibility with the following most likely consequences. But life would still be worth living, even if it happened." Sometimes to other people.<br /><br />And I haven't found a short way to express it, other than "I won't have a family". The long way, with definitions and caveats included, seems a little unwieldy.<br /><br />> The reason why I am stressing ...<br /><br />Ah, this is something I never got into, given that the culture never had any idea what to do with me (I couldn't conform to the current norm even if I tried, both the one for Poland and the ones in the West, though in different ways). <br /><br />If people try to lead good lives, they are by definition awesome to me.<br /><br />Parents are awesome because they raise kids, kids are awesome because they discover the world. Childless marriages are awesome, because they are more free to share with those who don't have a good nuclear family, while loving each other. Single people are awesome for the same reasons, but with a different flavour.<br /><br />Same thing goes for, e.g. a person's job.<br /><br />Everyone has a potential to be a different flavour of awesome, all of them seem necessary, so long as we're here, so I always find discussions about whose awesome is what in comparison to others a little awkward. It makes as much sense to me as comparing myself to my sibling. Our lives are both unique, we aren't competing and there isn't even any standard of comparison between two unique things.<br /><br />I realize that might not be the normal reaction for the readers of this blog, so don't mind me. :-)Iotanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-12071466482485706572013-09-27T12:27:09.502+01:002013-09-27T12:27:09.502+01:00I have corresponded with Emily Stimpson, and she ...I have corresponded with Emily Stimpson, and she is lovely! She couldn't be sweeter or more humble. She is thoughtful and smart. I have wished many times that I was her neighbor; she is that kind of person. She lives the single life magnificently, and actually she is much like you, Seraphic, in that her hospitality is well known among her friends. I suspect that some day she will marry, though she is obviously very sad that it has not happened yet. But whether or not she marries, it does not matter, as she has Jesus as the center of her life. She is pursuing her primary vocation to holiness, and that inspires me. I don't believe that she has written for Catholic Match, though if she did it wouldn't bother me. She writes for Catholic Vote. Seraphic, you are a very talented writer, and I love your blog. I am a married lady, but I love reading your columns. I suspect that if you were here in the USA, you too would have many guest appearances on EWTN. yours, LisaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-47883024803228289402013-09-27T10:10:05.877+01:002013-09-27T10:10:05.877+01:00Very well articulated Iota, except for one thing--...Very well articulated Iota, except for one thing--presumably you already have a family, yes? I always correct people when they say "maybe I'll never have a family" when what they mean is "maybe I'll never have a husband and child." Me, although I don't have children, I have a blood family of parents, siblings--including my s-in-law, and the kids of my siblings. They're really far away, though, so BA and I maintain friendships almost to the level people do in high school.<br /><br />One way to see what God wants is to look at history, and see the good things (e.g. not war). Marriage and babies are in themselves such good things and they continue to such an extent, that we can be darned sure that the continuation of family into the next millennium is indeed the Lord's will. This, of course, was never threatened or eroded to the same extent as religious life has been--first by enemies of the Church, then by, err, trends in the Church--but monastic life is so still so beautiful, especially where it flourishes, that we can be sure it's continuation is also God's will.<br /><br />The best must not be made the enemy of the good. The reason why I am stressing the primacy of virginity over marriage in the tradition of the Church is because the tendency right now (as it was definitely not in Augustine's day) is to act and think as though chaste Single life is vastly inferior to marriage. And unfortunately one reason why we are made to feel this way is society's obsession with sex. Seraphichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06251504033428511090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-2707793094525762022013-09-27T06:31:32.437+01:002013-09-27T06:31:32.437+01:00I've read Emily Stimpson's book and I like...I've read Emily Stimpson's book and I liked it, but your book is funnier, Seraphic. And if it's any consolation, your book sits on the exact same shelf as Emily's book at the Catholic bookshop at which I bought them both over here in the Antipodes. Yours cost more, too :) Julianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-58096405108252215292013-09-27T02:45:45.324+01:002013-09-27T02:45:45.324+01:00@Seraphic
Personal stuff first, to clear the air...@Seraphic <br /><br />Personal stuff first, to clear the air:<br /><br />> But, yes, many childless have bad days when we think [...]<br /><br />I’m either too young for that yet (somewhat below thirty), of a different temperament, God gave me this grace, or I’m just plain stupid, but I don’t have this reaction. I have a very, very low chance of ever getting married and consequently, of having children (due to a significant disability). The prospect of never having a family does send a chills down my spine sometimes, but it never gets a quarter that bad. I guess I mostly feel/think "It is what it is, and God has been VERY good to me already".<br /> <br />Now for the theoretical bits:<br /><br />I feel very inadequate discussing this with you, because I just might be saying something really idiotic. But maybe you’ll have the patience to correct me if necessary (and I apologize in advance). <br /><br />I understand that the saints of the Classical era would have rejoiced if everyone converted and became a monastic. Thing is it didn't happen. God apparently allowed people to procreate, so far for 20 centuries and counting.<br /> <br />And I'm wondering if that's not just a thing He allowed, but maybe actually a good thing. That is, I'm thinking of the possibility that God doesn't actually WANT everyone to be a monastic, even though the early saints would have though this the best thing. <br /><br />So that while the greatest good in the abstract might be single, celibate, monastic life, the actual greatest good for a particular John or Mary might be to be a father of four. Or a single, celibate, holy layperson. Because that happens to be the thing they are supposed to be doing. <br /><br />I’m not sure I’m making myself clear but I see a difference between the hierarchy of vocations in the abstract, as part of the Tradition, and the actual worth of a vocation of a particular, living person. They are what they are, and if it is good, I'm inclined to assume it's meant to be that way.<br /><br />> It is more important to be a saint than the mother of a saint, if you see what I mean<br /><br />I think I do. But I'm not sure if we have any proof to suggest St Monica's mother is not a saint, i.e. if there is actually any "beating" involved. If I remember correctly, the canonised saints are the ones God has seen fit to give us as visible models. The other saints, ones who aren't canonised but are in Heaven, are venerated on All Saints Day. I.e. that a person isn’t canonised doesn’t mean they aren’t a saint.<br /><br />Of course if, Saint Monica’s mother died in mortal sin, her daughter’s sainthood wouldn’t help her. But if she didn’t, then unless I misunderstand something, it’s possible they are both in Heaven and the details of whose sainthood if “greater” are known only to God. Right or wrong?Iotanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-37656604122852557072013-09-27T01:30:14.081+01:002013-09-27T01:30:14.081+01:00Sinead, I am in no way trying to diminish the suff...Sinead, I am in no way trying to diminish the suffering that women who want to be married but aren't feel. That is a particular kind of suffering, especially if you are in an environment that says you should be fulfilled by your career, etc (geez, even Sex & the City doesn't say that!). No one can be totally fulfilled in her career... but also no one can be totally fulfilled on this earth, and to the extent we are fulfilled it's through following the particular path that is given to us and striving towards love and holiness in that path. Everyone is offered a path, some more difficult than others, some with particular difficulties that others don't share- but these also provide other opportunities.<br /><br />I feel a lot of pity for Emily S. It is clear that she is suffering. But I think her saying that to a friend and writing it publicly are two different things, because it is based on how she feels and not reality. And while for some women it may feel refreshing to read, because they feel like that, too, for others (and maybe them, too) it increases self-pity rather than inviting peace and joy in the life that is given. <br /><br />-AnamariaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-65815406761825786442013-09-27T00:47:14.220+01:002013-09-27T00:47:14.220+01:00Hmph hmph hmph. I have a lot of respect for Emily...Hmph hmph hmph. I have a lot of respect for Emily Stimpson and for her work but have moved on from her writing to yours and have no desire to go back. I think you manage to convey the message that I know is true at my better moments: that I should apologize and feel bad for my sins and my mistakes but not for WHO I AM and who I am right now is single and that is FINE and likely part of Providence (unless I've thwarted Providence, but I doubt I could pull that off.)<br /><br />I also VERY much appreciate your skepticism about Catholic dating sites. My intuition says they are BAD and I am glad it agrees with yours.<br /><br />I briefly signed up for a trial CM account YEARS ago (5?) but balked at leaving my real first name. No, I am not completely crazy, I just have an EXTREMELY unusual given name, and live by myself in a very dangerous city. I substituted a nickname that is less identifiable but that I am actually called in my family. When CM found this out they blocked my account and contacted me with a pretty stiff letter. I explained that I had no intention of being dishonest but couldn't compromise my personal safety for more interesting weekends. I got a pretty cold note back indicating they believed me not in the slightest, in no way took my concerns seriously, and were worried I was misleading their young men. They volunteered to change my account name to my name (which they then knew) on my behalf. ACCOUNT DELETED.<br /><br />I suppose it was naive that I had to figure this out, but I walked away from that thinking, "Gee, those people do not have my best interests at heart."<br /><br />And then I ended up here...<br />:)thepinkeminencenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-79550741960438315112013-09-26T23:43:09.301+01:002013-09-26T23:43:09.301+01:00When I say that saving souls that actually exist i...When I say that saving souls that actually exist is more important than making new ones (and the soul is the form of the body, so there is no human soul before there is a human body--I think if God lets us make people, he is letting us make souls...Must consult Aquinas...), I am underscoring that WHAT IS is more important than WHAT IS NOT, or privileging the ACTUAL over the POTENTIAL. <br /><br />Although it kills me to say it, since the earliest days of the Church, reproduction has not been considered the be-all and end-all of Christian life. The attitude for centuries (at least) was, well, the Incarnation has happened, so it doesn't matter if there are any more people. There were BIG debates in the 3rd and 4th centuries whether marriage was okay for ANYBODY. (St. Augustine, a moderate, said yes.)<br /><br />Anyway, I am just underscoring this because it happens to be the tradition of the Church. The saints of the Classical era would have been delighted if every last man, woman and child in the whole world had converted to Christianity and all gone into strict religious life. This would have meant the end of the world, and thus the Second Coming. Hooray! Maranatha. <br /><br />We, of course, are delighted this has not yet happened, because we are glad to have been born. But we actually exist, unlike "our future children." I am actually very pro-future children. But I don't want Single people panicking and feeling like their lives will have no meaning if they don't have them. <br /><br />Of course, you may FEEL that way, but FEELINGS ARE NOT FACTS. The facts are being St. Monica trumped being St. Monica's mother, even though St. Monica could not have existed without her mother. It is more important to be a saint than the mother of a saint, if you see what I mean. And sainthood is not contingent upon having kids or not having kids. It is attached to everyone's primary call to holiness.<br /><br />But, yes, many childless have bad days when we think we would sacrifice everything to have kids--but we don't. We don't go down to the pub and get knocked up. We don't go down the IVF route. We don't because we know there is something more important than having kids, even though it hurts like hell that we don't have them: obeying the will of God. "Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him" (Job 13:15).Seraphichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06251504033428511090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-3962280408226103552013-09-26T23:00:37.991+01:002013-09-26T23:00:37.991+01:00Ah ProverbialGirlfriend, I am the opposite. I am s...<br />Ah ProverbialGirlfriend, I am the opposite. I am surrounded by a Pollyannish attitude towards singledom and the idea that a dead-end job can fulfill you if you just close your eyes and think happy thoughts. No misery allowed for single Catholics, just ignorance by nominal Catholics towards the genuine sadness about it all and discomfort that leads believers to feel guilty and stay silent about their dating frustration. When I open the can of worms it's amazing how many women say YES!, I would love to be married! So I'm glad to see the likes of Emily broaching the topic and wish more would do so. Filing paper (when marriage is for you) is not the same as rearing your own child and it's not mad for thinking that mam with child has it all. <br /><br />Sinéad. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-85271747178099742002013-09-26T22:40:52.705+01:002013-09-26T22:40:52.705+01:00> I think saving souls already made so much mor...> I think saving souls already made so much more important than making new ones, don't you? <br /><br />I feel kind of silly answering this question, but ... um, no? I’m profoundly happy that my parents had me… :-) (also, technically, parents don’t really “make souls”, God does - right?)<br /><br />My take on this is that the whole “What’s more important” question misses the point. I honestly dislike it, because I think (at least for me personally) it draws me away from where I am now and either tempts me to pride or to pity, neither of which are very constructive. <br /><br />There is obviously a point to ordering goods into a hierarchy in the abstract, but I prefer not to think too much about that hierarchy when it comes to actual, individual lives. <br /><br />----<br /><br />All the saints had mothers. All of them had fathers. Parents are very, very important.<br /><br />At the same time, many saints were single (and that was important because it gave them the chance to commit to something else than raising a family). And even in a purely secular sense, people who don’t have their own kids are important, because they have free “resources” (time, talents, sometimes maybe spare money) to give to those who do not have good families or to dedicate them to other worthy goals. <br /><br />Also to be honest, I kind of entertain the hope that parents, may receive, by God’s mercy, a portion of the merit of the good deeds of their children. Not because I’m a parent – I’m not and I’m extremely unlikely to ever be one. But because, as someone’s grown up child, that is what I would have wanted FOR my parents.<br /><br />(It is also something I would want for anyone who isn’t my parent but assisted me in any way – if they helped me, they deserve a just reward).Iotanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-58870966399527259282013-09-26T22:38:07.537+01:002013-09-26T22:38:07.537+01:00Oh dear, I did not mean for my comment to be insen...Oh dear, I did not mean for my comment to be insensitive or to imply something uncharitable about my sister. She would never trade her children back for my type of life. She just wants me to recognize how where I'm called to be right now has its own blessings and joys, which I will have to sacrifice and will probably have to mourn. I feel like her perspective is less annoying than Emily's because unlike Emily, my sister has seen both sides, <b> and affirms my dignity and my role in the world </b>. <br>My particular issue is that sometimes, like others have noted from her book, this focus on our mourning or sadness is not especially helpful to single women who are already upset. Emily, whether she realizes it or not, has great power because she has so much presence in Catholic media. Her essay did not seem entirely like a personal mope but a salvo in the debate brought up by some other article she references, and it could be very easy for single women to continue to feed negative thoughts about their state because this woman who seems to have credence, doesn't find her life or work meaningful without children. I, too, like others, have felt this, but a prayer of mine is to have God help me understand that I am loved and worthy simply because I am his. That my earthly life is meaningful, regardless of my secondary vocation, because I am striving to be his love in the world. <br>Sinéad, yes, one of the secondary vocations (marriage or consecrated religious life) is a path by which we get to heaven. Thankfully, all of us have a primary vocation, which is to know God, love him, serve him here on Earth. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-83314318863409495182013-09-26T22:30:21.248+01:002013-09-26T22:30:21.248+01:00Wow! 28 comments (including my own). I go away to ...Wow! 28 comments (including my own). I go away to Polish class, and things go nuts. <br /><br />Perhaps it's vocations talk? Before Vatican II, there was not a heck of a lot of talk about vocations other than nun/monk/priest--although sometimes priests talked about marriage as a vocation, and that was considered very "Ooooh! ahhha! marriage a vocation!!! Oooh! Food for thought!"<br /><br />Back then when people talked about "missed" or "ruined" vocations, they meant single men who seemed to them would have made good priests, or maybe an unhappily married ex-seminarian! <br /><br />The primary vocation, of course, is the universal call to holiness. That is permanent and solid and totally up to you--subsequent to the action of prevenient Grace, of course. <br /><br />Whether you get called to religious life, married life, consecrated Single life depends on pther human beings calling you. A guy who wants to become a priest has to be approved by a concrete bishop. A woman who wants to become a nun has to be approved by a concrete religious community. A woman who wants to be a consecrated virgin has to be approved by a bishop. A woman who wants to dedicate her life to L'Arche has to be accepted by L'Arche. And, dagnabit, a woman who wants to get married has to wait until she is asked by, or is accepted by, some man. Only then can she really be said to be called. <br /><br />Of course most women feel a very strong desire to marry. Marriage and reproduction are the natural (not the supernatural) end of the human person. But because the Sexual Revolution may have prevented as many men from becoming real adults as the Second World War killed off husbands and sweethearts. And this is why there seems to be such a shortage of men, and yes, that is AWFUL. <br /><br />And yet any one of you could probably get married within the year just by advertising in the newspaper of a poor country, and yet you don't. (And I'm glad you don't!) There are many men who would jump at the chance to marry a nice, educated, salary-earning, Western (in most cases) woman and live with her in her beautiful, comparatively rich country and do... Well, whatever. <br /><br />Personally, my high school plan era plan was to go to Warsaw, but then the Berlin Wall fell and ruined that idea. Also, I was popular enough in college that I figured I would not have to resort to Green Card marriage! :-D Seraphichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06251504033428511090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-87704292054937309822013-09-26T21:57:28.202+01:002013-09-26T21:57:28.202+01:00@Sheila - I do absolutely agree with you! I hope y...@Sheila - I do absolutely agree with you! I hope you didn't get me wrong when I said about children ending up miserable. What I meant was to emphasise that there are really bad, bad mothers who don't even remotely live up to their vocation. But of course, I don't assume that a child's failure is mother's fault and it makes all her motherhood a waste. No, of course not! :) Pearlmusicnoreply@blogger.com