tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post610297933721615448..comments2023-12-25T11:13:04.495+00:00Comments on Seraphic Singles: The Saint Joseph ProblemSeraphichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06251504033428511090noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-60963258329897195072010-11-16T07:46:01.262+00:002010-11-16T07:46:01.262+00:00Thank you for the clarification...Of course men ha...Thank you for the clarification...Of course men have a perfect right to pursue or not to pursue women and I'm not advising that they do in an undirected fashion just for the sake of being in motion. The issue, as I understood it, was the reasoning - i.e. that they had nothing to offer a woman. Within the context of a post that contained frustration over men's seeming laziness in pursuing women if they have discerned their vocation as being marriage, that answer seemed very unsatisfactory, and incorrect.Alishahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08803069677860028673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-8171967406551257752010-11-15T22:04:07.561+00:002010-11-15T22:04:07.561+00:00Some clarity here folks. It was not my intention ...Some clarity here folks. It was not my intention that "having nothing to offer" be taken in such a serious theological/philosophical way. I meant it in a practical, common sense, realistic way. When speaking of my brother, I did not mean to insinuate in any way that he feels a need to be the wealthiest man going or shower his lady love with baubles & jewels. Nor does he have a poor opinion of himself as a man, thinking he has to offer material possessions and neither does he sit around and he certainly is not victim of today's culture. Or that he doesn't understand the Catholic Faith & Doctrine; the sacrificial self giving aspect of marriage.<br /><br />He is not going to marry a woman & be on food stamps (I know Catholic newly weds like this)because he married a girl before he had a chance to think about anything (like clothing, sleeping & eating). Or marry a girl who has spent her life preparing to be a stay-at-home wife & mother and pull a fast one of telling her in order to pay the bills she has to work full time too.<br /><br />It is important for men who are done with all their degrees/trade training to be actively and constantly looking for their future spouse, but for college/grad/doctorate student males that decision on whether to pursue or not is up to them and they have a perfect right to say that they "have nothing to offer a woman." I have met many a lackadaisical man who drove women crazy because "he isn't pursing anyone" and when they finally see "the one" I have never seen a man move so fast to get her.NordicChicknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-33567195176457399182010-11-14T04:25:51.014+00:002010-11-14T04:25:51.014+00:00Secondly, yes the poor boys have a terrible cultur...Secondly, yes the poor boys have a terrible culture, they've been emasculated bla bla bla and we should not yell at them. None the less, manning up is not a matter of them being petted to death. At the end of the day, bad culture or not, they have brains and they have will. They can look around them and make decisions and ask questions. If they don't know how to act in a situation they can ask for advice.<br />I have been surrounded from childhood by magazines and celebrity culture which upholds thinness, fashion and all kinds of other false things as ideal. I am not, however, anorexic or a shopaholic because I simply judged, correctly, that those things are not essential or very important...and surprise, surprise, I came to these conclusions (gasp!) on my own. With the help of grace, of course but NCBs have access to that same stuff - even more than I did because I didn't go to a traditional Catholic college and I have no formal theological training. Basically, unless someone is extremely stupid, these things can be figured out.<br />If I'm extremely impatient it's because I know of enough examples that are different to know it doesn't have to be that way. My brothers all grew up in the same culture that these NCBs did. Not one of them is like the men described here. They aren't perfectly settled in their lives but they aren't sitting around, rendered completely helpless by the culture...again, to give that much credence to the wounded culture, to me, is to empty the Cross of its power, our faith of its meaning. We're supposed to be more than conquerors, remember?!!<br />And now...off the soap box.Alishahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08803069677860028673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-88261400687939498712010-11-14T04:24:12.438+00:002010-11-14T04:24:12.438+00:00I have two things to say.
"I am haunted by m...I have two things to say.<br /><br />"I am haunted by men saying "I have nothing to offer." I will ponder how men can be persuaded that they DO have something to offer or that with a little bit of effort they WILL have something to offer."<br /><br />The reason they believe that they have nothing to offer is because somehow, they've come to believe that their position in the world is more important than their person. This is why, while I believe it's important to enter marriage responsibly and understand the sacrifices of all kinds that will be made, that I always react so strongly to the suggestion that it is about the man being the provider or about diamonds (though I get that Seraphic is saying that people should not waste others' time or play with their hearts.) In marriage the sacrament consists of the man and woman giving THEMSELVES to each other. Not their amassed wealth or job or ability to turn cartwheels because they could lose all of that. Their identity is not that. Their identity is in Christ. If they know this, they know precisely that it is in their poverty that Christ is present and so they can move boldly forward with that assurance. To me, THIS is the tragedy, that NCBs (and girls!) do not understand this! What is Christianity if it is not about Christ? If Christ has not made us better understand the reality of our humanity better - our weakness, yes, but the fact that we are adopted children of GOD, for goodness sake, what the heck is the point of it all? To say you have nothing to offer, if you are Christian, means you do not understand your own faith and you need to go read your Scripture and your Catechism. And the lives of the Saints. Please.<br /><br />Secondly, yes the poor boys have a terrible culture, they've been emasculated bla bla bla and we should not yell at them. None the less, manning up is not a matter of them being petted to death. At the end of the day, bad culture or not, they have brains and they have will. They can look around them and make decisions and ask questions. If they don't know how to act in a situation they can ask for advice.<br />I have been surrounded from childhood by magazines and celebrity culture which upholds thinness, fashion and all kinds of other false things as ideal. I am not, however, anorexic or a shopaholic because I simply judged, correctly, that those things are not essential or very important...and surprise, surprise, I came to these conclusions (gasp!) on my own. With the help of grace, of course but NCBs have access to that same stuff - even more than I did because I didn't go to a traditional Catholic college and I have no formal theological training. Basically, unless someone is extremely stupid, these things can be figured out.<br />If I'm extremely impatient it's because I know of enough examples that are different to know it doesn't have to be that way. My brothers all grew up in the same culture that these NCBs did. Not one of them is like the men described here. They aren't perfectly settled in their lives but they aren't sitting around, rendered completely helpless by the culture...again, to give that much credence to the wounded culture, to me, is to empty the Cross of its power, our faith of its meaning. We're supposed to be more than conquerors, remember?!!<br />And now...off the soapbox.Alishahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08803069677860028673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-52036994820478795982010-11-12T02:30:26.141+00:002010-11-12T02:30:26.141+00:00I'd definitely be interested to hear what you ...I'd definitely be interested to hear what you come up with, Seraphic.hip2bsquarehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03260377586046285251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-46973774564056221732010-11-11T14:28:40.290+00:002010-11-11T14:28:40.290+00:00So much to say. Snatchable wrote primarily about h...So much to say. Snatchable wrote primarily about her experiences at a conservative Catholic college and then mentioned men in their 30s. <br /><br />I am haunted by men saying "I have nothing to offer." I will ponder how men can be persuaded that they DO have something to offer or that with a little bit of effort they WILL have something to offer. Meanwhile, if they are fine being Single for now, I'm cool with that. They don't want to marry just anyone either.<br /><br />As everyone knows, girls mature faster than boys. And nowadays all we hear about is opportunities for girls, career ladder for girls, 'girl power', girls taking charge of their lives, and not so much about opportunities for young men or young men taking charge of their lives.Mrs McLeanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18095035617334068201noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-12578361829687508352010-11-10T23:54:26.555+00:002010-11-10T23:54:26.555+00:00Ask a NCB, like an unattached brother or some male...Ask a NCB, like an unattached brother or some male who is like a brother why they didn't pursue girls in college. I asked my older unattached brother and his answer was "I have nothing to offer her. The natural conclusion of dating is marriage; so why date a girl if you can't propose within a year?(which I am certain Auntie Seraphic will agree with). I don't even have a degree never mind a full-time job. Why would I marry a girl who I can offer nothing to?" My friends have asked their unattached brothers and their answers have been about the same thing. I respect my brother for that as I respect my friend's brothers. I would rather marry a man like that and I hope that the man who wants to marry me would put that much care and thought into our future. I wouldn't have wanted to marry some NCB who didn't even have a job on the day of our nuptials, living with relatives, nor would I want to be working full time with baby #2 on the way and the landlord-is-kicking-of-us-out-of-our-apartment-and-we-can't-afford-anything-else scenario (all true). <br /><br />The only other answer men have is they "Haven't found the one yet" which is another story, but you can't blame a guy for looking for the right one. Sometimes us women get so caught up in our unwed status bereft of men that we forget there are men (there are some lazy non pursuers too)out there who have been going out on date after date, searching for "the one." One NCB, (getting married this Saturday to a lovely NCG) received a horrible reputation as a flirt for looking for "the one" from his Freshman year at college until he was thirty. It is best not to get bend out of shape over single men in their thirties- 10 years from now I'll venture to say only a very few of them will be left unmarried. After all, there is a God and His plans are way bigger and better then anything we can cook up in the meantime. I do loose patience with these guys running off to study some subject with a Masters or doctorate that won't earn a crust of bread when they finally decide to marry it is part of the man's role to be a provider- don't know how they missed that one modern world or not. There they will be with 6-8 years of student loans and say "Will you marry me?" But, I will refrain on this subject. :-)<br /><br />The whole time I was at a traditional Catholic college, I watched with a small grouping of friends, as NCG after NCG dated/courted NCB after NCB and finally watched them marry within weeks and months of graduation. We wondered "What the heck is the matter with the NCB at our school?" or parents said: "I don't know what is the matter with the NCB at your school, every girl I have seen is either attractive or beautiful." etc.- like Snatchable says "so many wonderful, gorgeous, holy, normal, balanced, exceptional Catholic women who men just walk right by." I thought rather sadly that, sniff, I was going to graduate not dating or un-engaged. Then one day I realized these NCG were in the extreme minority of women on campus and the majority of us were single & wondering why the men weren't pursuing or had taken the pursuing into our own hands.<br /><br />Now, that I have been graduated for 2 years I am so GLAD, GLAD, GLAD I did not date during college and end by marrying some NCB the summer after I graduated. Looking back, I see first how startlingly immature, just boys really, they were and now when I meet them these 2 years later they are now men, now they are worth dating and marrying.NordicChicknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-28353575935263973382010-11-10T23:11:54.200+00:002010-11-10T23:11:54.200+00:00Seraphic, I agree with everything you said. But S...Seraphic, I agree with everything you said. But Snatchable was asking about 30-something men, and - maybe I've misread you - many of your comments were directed toward 20-something men. I know the 30-somethings are burned by women's wrath for opening/not opening the door, but I've observed many men who are making a reasonable living by the time they are 30, yet still are not dating/marrying. Do you have additional words of wisdom about NCMs 30+?Domestic Divanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6905236167079601771.post-10987352254546077602010-11-10T21:19:20.013+00:002010-11-10T21:19:20.013+00:00Dear Seraphic,
Thank you for this post. I can com...Dear Seraphic,<br /><br />Thank you for this post. I can completely sympathize with "Snatchable" in her frustration. However, I have long stopped being frustrated with the men. I frustrated for them. <br /><br /> It is a dreadful situation for courtship on every battle front. It is hard to make enough to support the wife and any children. It is more difficult than ever to be chaste. It is more difficult to connect as persons because we have become so fearful of each other. It seems that one of the things most fearful to any person is being judged negatively. In reality, there are so many worse things that can happen. Not growing as a person, for instance, or not learning to conquer one's fears or becoming incapable of true love and commitment, or being warped and poisoned by bitterness. <br /><br />I think we NCGs need to be affirming and gentle to the NCBs, but that we must NOT fight their battles for them. I really think that one of the best things that we can do for them is to communicate to them what we expect of them. A lot of poor guys are completely unschooled and are completely baffled as to what is to be expected of them. For example, maybe a simple, "Would you be so kind as to open the door for me, please? My hands are full." Would be more effective than complaining after the fact to them, "You guys are SO TOTALLY not gentlemen! You never open the door for us!" <br /><br />The whole dating thing is more difficult to handle. I used to go out on at least one date with every fellow who asked me. My friends would ask me why I did, especially if the gentleman had not made a favorable first impression on us. I would answer that first impressions can be decieving and I wanted to give every man a fair sporting chance. If after two dates, the gentleman still seemed intent on pursuit, and we lacked compatibility (I could usually tell by the end of the second date) I would decline further requests as gratefully and graciously as I could. Because the last thing I or any other NCG would want to do is discourage a NCB to go out and continue asking other women or detain them from their mission. If that is their calling, that is. <br />But when men seem intent upon simply hanging out and take forever to ask, it is awkward. It only makes them look clumsy to us. <br /><br />Once a NCB kept going to places where he knew that he would find me. He hovered around me and asked me millions of questions about myself, my views, my interests, my talents and my housekeeping skills. His questions and his many compliments were only flattering the first five hundred times because he would not ask me out. Moreover, he would not converse with me. He made it seem like an interview for the honored promotion of being his date, or an audition for a part I had to perform. Any interest he had hope of sparking in my mind he ruined by his air of condescension, evaluation and his stalling. So I became fairly confident and happy that he would never ask me out and leave me alone. So I became more reserved, and answered questions succinctly, followed by a question to him or a remark on a book, play, poem, lecture, musical piece or the weather. All the while I was giving him messages with my eyes and body language "Just in case you ever were going to make up your mind to ask me out...Don't!"<br /><br />He did not pick up on it! It is baffling to me! What is the point of stalling and testing the waters forever if you are not even going to pick up on the signs we women give you? He finally did ask me out and then I had to politely and gently decline and say the dreaded "I just want to be friends." It is sad, because he was a fine fellow in himself, but he kept shooting himself in the foot. I had rather hoped at the time that this was a rare thing, but talking to my friends I see it is not. It is so sad for men and women both.dark but fairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17929758251543007628noreply@blogger.com