Dear Auntie Seraphic
Thank you for this very extensive and helpful reply! I appreciate it a lot. I too (as a theology student myself, missionary and parish worker) have spent a lot of time around priests and seminarians, so I am learning some of the confidence you describe.
It is very affirming to hear that it's OK to treat priests as people -- ie. respectfully but still expressing one's own opinion and not having to feel like they always know more than you (I think they usually do -- just not necessarily about my own life/personal experience).
Others who have not had the same experience however, continually tell me to "be more respectful" (ie. shut up). And sometimes I feel like I don't know where the line is anymore.
I will share your comments with some very dear friends. We all experience it a lot and aren't sure what to do.
Feel free to use any of this (without names of course! :-) for your blog if you think other readers would find it helpful. At least here in the USA it is a very common situation for those of us who are practicing Catholics/work in the Church/volunteer/go to retreats etc.
Thank you for everything!
God bless,
Vocations Victim
Dear Vocations Victim,
I'm sorry to read that you are being told, in so many words, to shut up , especially if you are in your mid-20s. I wonder if anyone told St. Catherine of Siena, who wasn't even a nun and yet told the pope what to do, to shut up. I hope not, but I bet she probably was. Many people feel intimidated by young women speaking their minds.
(And not so young, too. I just found a "thank goodness Jesus isn't as judgmental as you" comment on the internet version of the Catholic newspaper I write for--signed with a pseudonym, of course. Did I care? Yeah, for half a second.)
Anyway, don't shut up. You are a Daughter of God. The best way to respect a priest is to treat him like an intelligent human being who can handle truthful, reasonable adult conversations, and maybe make sure you aren't exposing any cleavage or too much leg when he's around. (I throw that in because sometimes I discover a priest across from me at a dinner party and I am, like, "Oooh. Could I borrow a lacy hanky to stuff in my dress?")
Grace and peace,
Seraphic
Now that I think about it, I don't know what "missionary" or "parish worker" means in VV's context. But I do know that it can be a very tough situation when your faith is also your job.
One of my most horrible memories of parish work is standing next to the priest and the seminarian after Mass to shake hands with the People of God, and the People of God, terribly embarrassed, mostly avoided me. I was hurt and envious of the seminarian, whom they embraced and patted and made much of, even though he was politically and socially to the right of Generalissimo Franco and possibly drank the blood of slaughtered liberation theologians.
But I now think, of course they did. The People of God dread the imposition of "lady priests" (to quote a man who ordered me away from his hospital bed), and I looked suspiciously like a "lady priest." I honestly believe the People of God draw the line at lady priests. They want real priests, young priests, even (or especially) priests like Semininarianissimo Franco.
But I now think, of course they did. The People of God dread the imposition of "lady priests" (to quote a man who ordered me away from his hospital bed), and I looked suspiciously like a "lady priest." I honestly believe the People of God draw the line at lady priests. They want real priests, young priests, even (or especially) priests like Semininarianissimo Franco.
Every time a soi-disant "womanpriest" gets ordained, life gets worse for ordinary Catholic women in the ministry trenches. I heard so much moaning about clericalism in my pre-Trid days, but thinking that only clerics are first class Catholics, and therefore women are doomed to the second class, is a pernicious form of clericalism. It just isn't true. What is true, however, is that many priests are scared of women, not so much now because they are afraid of women tempting them into sexual sin (as some women have always tried to do), but because they are afraid of women--or laypeople in general--taking over and bossing them around.
This can leave the young woman doing what used to be nun-work or even priest-work (like chaplaincy) in the difficult position of having to prove all the time that she does not secretly harbour a desire to be a priest, or in some cases, e.g. she reports to an older woman, to pretend that she does. And of course she does not get all the perks and shortcuts that the priest's collar or the nun's habit brings when dealing with people. Collars and habits make all but the most militantly progressive churchgoing layfolk smile.
Personally, I could not hack an official church-approved ministry career, unless the new archbishop of Edinburgh wrote to me asking that I become the Official Auntie to Singles in the diocese. That would be extremely awesome, and I would do my job rather like how I did my college chaplaincy internship: basically I hung out with Catholic undergrads and a Muslim undergrad, drank tea, listened to their problems and gossip and talked about their theological interests. I think my boss (female) wanted me to be more pro-active, whatever that means, but I know the undergrads just liked having me around to talk to. I would turn my office into a sitting-room: an overstuffed Victorian one with comfy battered couches.
However, I know some of you girls are indeed in church careers, so please feel free to chime in about how to be you and how to be taken seriously in your ministries without frightening Father Sensitive or being ground down by Father Snarly and Wannabe Womanpriest Wanda.
8 comments:
Wow! I did not know this would be such a hot topic!
Mission work, in my case, meant internship basically. Parish work, in the US of A, are people who are paid to work in parishes, full-time, part-time, or full-time with part-time pay. :)
There are the dynamics you mentioned, about trying to prove to your older female colleagues that you are not "too meek" in some situations. Most priests, however, do not usually find me suspect in the way you mention. A. because I think they are so desperate for help of any kind; B. because the first point I always make with a priest that's my boss is that I'm there to serve and do things his way (this doesn't mean I don't voice my opinion, but in the end it's his parish and what he says goes); C. they tend to go to the opposite extreme and treat me like I'm a "priest" (or nun I guess) too, and so I have to remind them on a regular basis that there are limits to what I can take on, limits to problems I can solve, situations where I DO need to have their input and can't just solve it, and actually, no Father, I DO NOT KNOW the answer. . .lol
It's beautiful, but it gives you a strong dose, at a young age, that everyone is human and trying to figure things out, even in the Church. That's hard to accept sometimes because when you're fairly new to adulthood, you want to believe that there's this safety net of people running the world that know exactly what they are doing in all respects. Part of growing up I guess is to realize that you have to pray, stand on your own two feet, and occasionally dive in with your own inexperience and learn the hard way.
A couple things after many years of being the sole or almost sole lay woman in my situation surrounded by priests/ seminarians.
1. I am not exactly the silent type and I tend to harp on about wymyn priest(esses) more than any man around me. The wanna-bes frustrate me to no end. (I've yet to work with one, so I guess I might have to take a different approach at some point.) For now, I make it VERY clear where I stand.
2. When someone mentions nun-hood, "because you are a holy woman" {HA! Studying theology does not a holy person make!} I usually say something to the effect of, "oh, you don't think lay people are supposed to be holy, too? Didn't Vatican II talk a lot about that?"
3. The marriage question I honestly find to be the most rude/ ignorant of the bunch: it's like priests have no idea that it takes two people to get married, and the woman is not the go-getter in the situation. Sometimes I say, "do you ask everyone that question?" or, "would you ask me that if I were a lay man?". If I'm feeling nicer or more subdued, I might say, "maybe, but I really feel God calling me to be here right now, so I'm just going with it."
The more time I spend with men in collars, the more I realize the importance of treating them like real human persons, and not some Office who happens to breathe. The US seems to have an especially difficult time with this, compared to other countries I've seen (esp. some northern European nations). I think it's somehow tied to Seraphic's point about the exodus of religious vocations in the '60s, our puritanical roots, and the recent decade(s) of scandals. Everyone is on edge, and of course in many ways you can't blame them, but I think it's important to remember that priests are people, too.
Oh, and lots of people told Catherine of Sienna to shut up. They accused her of being a temptress, too... having priests visit her after hours and all that.
This is a very interesting piece. Thank you, Seraphic. What you said about the ordination of women making people more jumpy about women's ministry elsewhere struck a chord with my own (protestant) experience. I’m pretty ignorant of how this fits with Catholic experiences, but it did seem there are some similarities.
As you said, not all women who desire to serve want to be priests, nor do we protestants all want to become ministers. Yet many protestant churches are becoming increasingly afraid, too. I used to attend a mainstream church where in the name of defending male headship women weren't allowed to welcome people at the door or hand around the collection plate, let alone pray or read scripture aloud during the service. The men praying and preaching placed lots of emphasis on women being good wives and mothers, but nothing else. The minister was a lovely, God-fearing man, who I knew quite well. When I asked why they did things that way, he was perfectly willing to discuss it, but immediately warned that he wasn't about to change the church to conform to the patterns of the world. No doubt deep down some of my reasons for asking were worldly, but I was also worried about what I saw as a disconnect between the Bible and some of the things they were saying. Yet at that church those particular practices were strongly defended by the assumption that to question them must stem from worldly motives (possibly more so if the person asking was a young single woman). Maybe their way of running a church was correct – let God have the final say on that – but it does worry me that in reacting against feminism we sometimes risk our behaviour being determined by what's going on in the world, not by the timeless truths of God.
The irony is, of course, that the fallen world, while paying lip service to "equality," continues on its merry way mistreating and excluding women as it always has. In an effort to avoid doing what the world says, some churches might end up doing what it does.
PS. Sorry if I posted that last one multiple times. I'm having trouble with my browser settings. (Please don't post this one!).
What bothers me the most is when folks hear I'm getting a degree in divinity and say something with a knowing wink about not being able to be ordained or about doing the same job as a priest, assuming immediately that I want that. In truth, I don't want to be ordained, and not one of the 15 or so women in my program at a big Catholic university wants to be ordained, any more than the 15 or so lay men (married, single, and engaged)who are in my program want to be ordained. Maybe three or four out of the 30 are somewhat open to discussing whether or not the Catholic Church should ordain women, but it's not a personal interest for any of the women. We all just want to be lay ministers, and the majority are fine with the Church's current teaching. I don't know where all the young women who want to be priests went, but I suspect that there are less and less of them. My theory: the young women coming up are orthodox, or so heterodox they've left all religion altogether. It's only women over a certain age who want to be priests.
Incidentally, it's always older folks who make these remarks.
I can't say I've had trouble with priests or seminarians not accepting me or treating me with suspicion or sexism. Again, it's older lay folks who seem to do that. The priests and seminarians I know are mostly really cool guys who really get it. And I am pretty openly in love with the Church and with what it means to be a woman in the Church, per ancient wisdom and the immortal Edith Stein... and I think there is a lot of mutual respect between us on account of that. I think sometimes they are intimidated by me, poor lambs, but also grateful in a way,
and they trust that, and so we have good relationships.
My biggest beef with a pastoral ministry or divinity degree as a lay woman is that I can never have a conversation with anyone about what it is that I do. Every conversation, on an airplane, in the hairdresser, at a barbecue, goes like this "What are you going to grad school for?" "I'm getting a divinity degree... it's a degree in theology... but I won't be teaching it, I'll be working for the Church..." *awkward silence in which it is clear they have not the faintest clue what any of this means...* End conversation as they beat a hasty retreat.
It makes me wish I'd taken up something people know about. Like plumbing. Or real estate.
Long Time Reader in Grad School
What bothers me the most is when folks hear I'm getting a degree in divinity and say something with a knowing wink about not being able to be ordained or about doing the same job as a priest, assuming immediately that I want that. In truth, I don't want to be ordained, and not one of the 15 or so women in my program at a big Catholic university wants to be ordained, any more than the 15 or so lay men (married, single, and engaged)who are in my program want to be ordained. Maybe three or four out of the 30 are somewhat open to discussing whether or not the Catholic Church should ordain women, but it's not a personal interest for any of the women. We all just want to be lay ministers, and the majority are fine with the Church's current teaching. I don't know where all the young women who want to be priests went, but I suspect that there are less and less of them. My theory: the young women coming up are orthodox, or so heterodox they've left all religion altogether. It's only women over a certain age who want to be priests.
Incidentally, it's always older folks who make these remarks.
I can't say I've had trouble with priests or seminarians not accepting me or treating me with suspicion or sexism. Again, it's older lay folks who seem to do that. The priests and seminarians I know are mostly really cool guys who really get it. And I am pretty openly in love with the Church and with what it means to be a woman in the Church, per ancient wisdom and the immortal Edith Stein... and I think there is a lot of mutual respect between us on account of that. I think sometimes they are intimidated by me, poor lambs, but also grateful in a way,
and they trust that, and so we have good relationships.
My biggest beef with a pastoral ministry or divinity degree as a lay woman is that I can never have a conversation with anyone about what it is that I do. Every conversation, on an airplane, in the hairdresser, at a barbecue, goes like this "What are you going to grad school for?" "I'm getting a divinity degree... it's a degree in theology... but I won't be teaching it, I'll be working for the Church..." *awkward silence in which it is clear they have not the faintest clue what any of this means...* End conversation as they beat a hasty retreat.
It makes me wish I'd taken up something people know about. Like plumbing. Or real estate.
Long Time Reader in Grad School
I work in a Catholic school, so my role is better defined and I haven't been hoped/suspected of pining for the priesthood. But as I'm in a position of influence, I've taken plenty of hits from the local clergy: Frs. Progressive convinced I'm a little to the right of the Lefebvrites, and Frs. HyperConservative certain I'm a liberal in disguise. This has caused much hand-wringing, wailing and gnashing of teeth, and examination of conscience on my part, relieved by the wonderful support of my Nashville Dominican colleagues, my former confessor (now a bishop), and an excellent Catholic counsellor.
Over the years, I have had to learn how not to take things personally. I'm still working on this, and it still hurts, but I've realized those unbelievable comments are more about the speaker than about me. I could really fill this comm box with comments that I've received from priests (surprisingly and most painfully for me, those who pride themselves on being so "orthodox")...and I've learned that like other human beings, priests can be very broken people and/or people who have some real problems with social interaction. It's helped me to recognize that when I've been on the receiving end of some very biting comments.
Ah. The "What I do" conversation. I always kept it as brief as possible. First, if you say you're studying "philosophy" you dodge a bullet. However, you could also say you're studying for ministry. And then you should immediately say, "And what do you do? And do you enjoy it? What o you like best about it?" Ministry is all about getting the other person to talk, if you ask me.
Domestic Diva, blah. Sorry about that. Sadly, it often is the orthodox ones. I think it's because they have somehow been conditioned to think of women in theology/religious ed as the enemy. But it sounds like you have found a healthy and charitable way to cope with that.
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