Saturday, 2 March 2013

Another Glimpse into Hell

I want to get this over with as soon as possible. In short, a reader sent me a link into the black heart of the manosphere to read a post on seducing virgins. It was simply the most disgusting thing I have read for a very long time. It was like listening to the chuckling of demons.

My response was to thank God that, so far as I know, I know only decent men, good men who would never target, trick, hurt, exploit and discard young, inexperienced women and then brag about it online. 

Your fellow reader thought someone should expose the tactics of these freaks, which work along the same lines as negging. Frankly, I don't even want to think about them, but I'll do it because it fills me with horror that such men exist and of course they get away with such things. One of the men in the combox claimed he was operating in Poland. He was amazed at how many 20 year old virgins there are in Poland. I hope he is caught by Polish guys and beaten within an inch of his life.

So here are the tactics. (I'm certainly not linking to the post!) By the way, I would like to remind you for about the twelfth time that you should not tell anyone except your mother, doctor, confessor (if necessary) and your fiance, if you have one, if you are a virgin or not. Do not bring it up in conversation with your female friends because there is a strong chance they will talk about it later, perhaps around male friends, who will tell their male friends...

The Demons' Tactics:

1. Express disappointment that the girl is a virgin. The freak author goes on and on to his victim about how he's only into "fun sex" and how sex with virgins is such a drag.  (I assume this is to shock and confuse her if hitherto everyone has been telling her what a special thing virginity is. This is also to insult her and make her feel less valuable.) 

2. Tease her about it. He says things like "How can you have lived twenty percent of your life without experiencing the greatest thing on earth?" 

3. Tell her he would not want to have sex with a virgin. In a caring way, he tells his victims that they should find someone who will do it in a caring way. He simply doesn't want the responsibility, blah, blah, blah, blah.

4. Put up with the initial awkwardness and physical suffering of the girl as an investment in the (short-term) future. This was the most disgusting part, so be warned. In short, the demon disguised as a human being knows perfectly well that sex is a learned skill. It is not necessarily enjoyable the first time or the second. However, said the DDAHB, if you plan to keep the girl around for at least a month, after the boredom and the hassle of early sex you will be able to get her to do all kinds of sex acts that more experienced women wouldn't do because she is too inexperienced to know what is normal. She will be eager to please, etc., etc.   

The reader sent me to this post because guys have tried these tactics on her, although at the time she did not know they were tactics. She says she would have been devastated if she had succumbed to them and read this post later, so I hope anyone who has succumbed to these things and is feeling wretched will now go and talk to a good friend or good priest about it.  

The reader also wanted to know what I would say to this post, so here is what I have to say.

1. "Game" tactics work on some women and not on others, and this doesn't seem to have anything to do with how smart, educated, religious, high-earning, kindly or beautiful they are. Some women fall for them, and others do not. End of.

I believe they work because they are confusing. They mess with a woman's expectations so that her brain scurries around trying to sort everything out and putting everything back into order, as in Tetris. Lots of women got almost addicted to Tetris. 

It is confusing and unsettling when a guy talks casually and flippantly about such a personal thing as a girl's virginity. It is confusing and unsettling when a guy says it is a bad thing a guy should run from, not a precious thing he (like Don Giovanni) covets or (like a man who loves you) honours. It is confusing and unsettling when a man tells you he's a bad guy, not a good guy, because would a really bad guy tell you that he was a bad guy?

Yes. A bad guy will tell you anything to get laid. ANYTHING. Anything they think will work, and thanks to Game and the internet, the kind of men who think women are living sex dolls share their miserable store of magic words.  

3. And this is one of the reasons why I am adamant that teenagers and young women should not tell anyone other than your mothers, your doctors, your confessors (if necessary) and your fiances (should you have one) that you are still virgins. The subject should just not come up. Ever. If the subject does come up in casual conversation, you should consider keeping the guy who brought it up at arm's length. 

I realize that by saying this I am standing up against a lot of professional chastity educators, purity rings, and the whole "I'm a Virgin and Proud" movement. Yes. I think they are moronic. If you put your head over a parapet, expect it to be shot at. It's okay one thing for married old toughies like me to be attacked; it's another for inexperienced, innocent and sweet teenage and twenty-something girls who just want to be loved. Old married ladies have a lot of armour; young Single girls, not so much.

4. You should also--this was mentioned at Seraphapalooza--keep away from occasions for sin. A cute funny guy whom you still like and think is cool and funny even after he has told you he would never have sex with a virgin because he prefers "fun sex" is a walking occasion for sin.

As we are all sexual beings, we all have to be humble. No matter how good and pure others tell us we are, we are all subject to sexual temptation, and the reason why we are not tempted, if we aren't, is not because we are all that and a bag of chips but because a serious occasion for sin hasn't arrived yet. So when one does, get out of there. 

5. Meanwhile, don't chase men. Game tactics are all about a man chasing a woman while pretending not to, creating just enough interest so that the woman, craving his approval, will chase him. If you train yourself not to chase men, not to pick up the phone, not to send him the text, you will be safer from the tactics of the demons of the post I hope soon to expunge from my memory.

At theology school we were warned against seeing demons in human beings. However, community standards rule that I can't use bad language. And believe me, whoever the guys on that post are, Satan is definitely calling the shots in their lives.   


Jessica said...

Agreed on the negative consequences of the "virgin and proud!" type movements. Modern culture clearly overemphasizes the importance of having sex - I don't think the best response is to overemphasize the importance of NOT having sex.

Then again, I grew up with a peer group that was not having sex in high school, so I don't know how important chastity programs are for those who feel more like outsiders for being virgins. Maybe it helps channel the natural rebelliousness of teenagers to rebel against the culture? That's the only reason I can think of to justify it. Otherwise, I'm of the firm opinion that a sexual sin is just a sin to be solved by confession and penance, nothing less, nothing more. No need to wear a "scarlet A" in Catholicism!

aileen said...

Seraphic, I've had a couple occasions where in talking one-on-one with female friends, they asked me what my feelings are about premarital sex. In both instances, I felt awkward, mostly because I wasn't particularly close with either friend and it's pretty intimate information. But, I remember feeling like I might as well be honest, because it's not something I'm ashamed of (though I don't go around volunteering this information) and told them I was waiting for marriage. Now in thinking about it, it seems like these women overstepped their boundaries, but I don't know what an appropriate response would be. "No, I don't believe in premarital sex" I guess, but I just don't understand why people are so nosy. These friends had already shared with me that they hadn't waited for marriage (TMI if you ask me). Do you have any thoughts on this?

Anonymous said...

I would also like to add that two of those men were not men I was dating (where I felt I had to explain why they were not getting anywhere with me). One of them was a man who started chatting me up at a function and after trying to figure out why I wasn't responding (gay or frigid?) he must have spotted by my body language because he zoned in on virginity with glee. The other guy was in his mid-thirties and I was 19, I never responded to his sexual banter at work and after watching me for a while he concluded with the virginity. I remember being beetroot red at that and lost any semblance of detachment from his rotten talk. Then the matter of fact pity chat started. I wish I had reported him, he was an outside consultant.

I would urge any woman that if you hear any of those lines in a club/bar or wherever DO NOT take another sip of your drink, put it down and go, get your girlfriend and get out. Also if you're alone, get out. Reading those links I would put nothing past them.

Reason #927 for not using contraception is that the chances of God sending you big strong brothers to kick ass and defend your honour if needed rises, and even the threat of them works.

We never have to have a conversation that makes us uncomfortable. Just go, don't even bother trying to neg them back, they're working with evil intent.

Thanks for commenting on this Seraphic.

Seraphic said...

Jessica, yes-s-s-s, but some sexual sins can leave serious scars on either you or the other person or both. But I completely agree that, really, we should be talking about sex so much, especially in mixed company, so stop reading, the Eavesdroppers.

Aileen, a great answer to lighten the mood is, "I believe that it happens, yes." Meanwhile, just because a person is against premarital sex doesn't mean they are a virgin, necessarily, so I don't think anyone is betraying personal information merely by saying, "No. I think people are happier if they wait until they are married."

Anonymous, I think we lost part of your comment, but I am sorry that happened to you. It is so out of line for a man in his 30s to talk like that to a 19 year old girl--at work, yet!--that I am horrified. He deserved to be fired.

clv said...

Just my two cents... but I've observed a couple of effective ways to save face when a man makes a rude sexual remark, targeting you for youth or inexperience or whatever:

1) You just didn't hear what he said. You keep talking about the weather. Or a vaguely sweet smile and a "Sorry?" and often the guy will be afraid to repeat it.

2) For some reason you can't pretend you didn't hear it. Icy stare, "Excuse me?" and walk away. Or "That's extremely rude. Excuse me." If there are people present, it helps if they hear. If they laugh, they are laughing at him, not you.

Dunno what you think about these ideas, Seraphic?

Seraphic said...

Oh, I meant should NOT be talking, there. Dear me. I wish I would type more accurately.

Clv, whatever derails the conversation is the right answer to the problem. And the conversation cannot be derailed by a woman who is determined to "be nice" at the cost of her dignity. "Sorry?" would work on a woman, but it might not work on a guy since they are rather dim when it comes to conversational subtleties. "That's extremely rude@ and walking away seem safest to me. And if it is at work, walking towards HR to make a complaint is even better.

gina said...

First time commentator here, but long-time (now married) lurker!

In general, I would agree with Seraphic's advice for young girls not to advertise or even announce their virginity.

However, I will say that toward the end of my 6 or so years of active dating, during which time untold numbers of supposedly devout Catholic men tried to get me into bed, I finally learned that i could save much time, energy and heartbreak by declaring that i was saving sex for marriage and wouldn't be ending the evening with it. The losers would lose themselves pretty quickly, and the good guys would let me know there wasn't a problem.....

Nzie (theRosyGardener) said...

makes me glad for being a late bloomer - I'd like to think I wouldn't fall prey (although thankfully I've never had to find out), but I know it'd make me feel pretty awful regardless. I may key my mom into this so she can talk to my younger sisters; one can be a bit vulnerable in wanting to please people, so it'd be good to prepare her.

I love your answer, Seraphic, about premarital sex! I wish I had something as pithy when I find myself surrounded by friends whose assumptive values are so contrary to mine, one where I felt I could encourage them not to consider anyone with traditional values backwards/bigoted without actually getting into a discussion.

Melissa said...

I'm a married woman with a twelve year old daughter that feels she should keep up on the manosphere if only to provide my child wih some awareness with just what is out there. But, like you, I can't stomach it very well. Instead, I keep abreast by paying attention to Athol Kay on his blog "Married Man Sex Life". He pays attention to the manosphere for its tricks, and then turns around and uses them on his wife. Seems to work for them. I don't think we can ignore that hellish subset of the male population. They have a lot of power avaiable to them.

Jackie said...


Seraphic, you are right: This is horrible, disgusting and beyond reprehensible.

I would also suggest that a blogger who seeks to monetize is going to specifically traffic in this kind of filth for page hits and/or for self-promotion (books, camps, etc). Regardless of whether it's falsified in the name of self-promotion.

I wouldn't be surprised if all of this guy's "conquests" are fictional in nature, as it would probably drive up enough income to keep from getting a more respectable job than blogging to promote evil.

In any event, everything you said is true. (Plus: ALWAYS stick with your girlfriends-- never ever EVER go with a strange man, esp. with the possibility of rohypnol in your drink!) I think the contemptible worm writing this trash should be ostracized and shunned from society, but that's just my 0.02.

I don't know if I would like a husband who would troll the manosphere for "tricks" and then "turn around and use" them on me.

I google'd Athol Kay and found an article from the Daily Mail that detailed multiple "emotional affairs" he committed while married.

I'm sure he does very with traffic and monetization, but I for one refuse to give the Manosphere (like PUAs) any attention beyond the derision they deserve.

Mrs. Pinkerton said...

I want to weep. I have seven daughters.

Seraphic said...

I guess the only answer is that mums and dads have to street-proof their daughters even after they are 12. After all, we do tell children not to get into a car with strangers, and we explain the menstrual cycle to 10 year old girls, so we can also explain Game to 14-16 year olds... I hope.

Alisha said...

I think the best thing you can do is teach your daughters to speak up so that it's habit. If they are in the habit, they will find they can't NOT say anything in those situations and they will be a tremendous role model to other girls. Role play situations with them so they get good, fast at replying with strength, dignity and know when to get out.
When asked a question that is too personal that seems to be asked invasively, I tell them it's none of their business, but if asked by friends who don't share my beliefs but are maybe sincerely seeking information to try to understand where I am coming from, I am a bit more patient. I tell them that I won't talk about my own history because whichever way I answer, I can only lose - either I'll be a target for teasing if I have no history or I'll be called a hypocrite if I reveal a less than perfect past. That has usually worked well. Admittedly, I have sometimes used a smart comeback, but only in a situation where I know I can win or where I know the guys and know they don't really mean harm but just don't know any other way of seeing things or behaving...I know it's not always the best tactic, as it can be seen as encouraging but sometimes they are looking for that embarrassed, red-faced reaction, and by not giving it to them, it lets them know I won't be walked over. Again, I wouldn't recommend it in general or with strangers. And in any professional setting, it should be reported. That's one tough thing with the theatre as a professional setting - it's incredibly different and you can't appeal to the same standards and boundaries that are normally there in an office. It's possible to work together in incredibly intimate situations that are respectful and not have it degenerate into a constant barrage of sexual jokes (even if not aimed at anyone) but sometimes these are seen as such non-issues that to bring them up is a big deal.

Anonymous said...

"whoever touches you touches the apple of His eye"

"revenge is mine, says the Lord"

"If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea."

I AM A VICTIM OF THIS HORRIFYING ABUSE. Jesus saved me when I wanted to commit suicide after I hear my abuser saying :"It was such a fun to turn a good Catholic girl into a cheap sl*t".

Remember three crucial things :

1) the first person who saw a Jesus risen from death was... a woman,who was used and abused sexually many times, a prostitute, who didn't left Him, when He died on the cross

2) king David's grandma (so also Virgin Mary's ancestor!) was a prostitute and a hero, who saved many Israel people from death (Rachab)

3) every confession makes you a virgin in God's eyes and a SAINT

You are not worse,you are not cheap, you are not condemned.

You're God's beloved daughter!!!

Please, pray for me, and I will pray for all of you! May the Lord heal our wounds, may He bless us abundantly and gives us wonderful and worthy men for husbands.

My name is Meg.

Seraphic said...

Dear Meg, I'm terribly sorry that happened to you. I hope God has many, many blessings in store for you.